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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I believe Nissan drastically reduced production on these final years, or they're being snatched up by Z fans and BaT hopefuls. I searched here in the US, none. Anyone here bought one of the final 2020 models? Were there any Nismos at all?


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I tried search on Nissan's website and others like Cars.com and I couldn't find anything. So if Nissan does have some left I guess you have to go through a dealer or know someone.
 

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At least the tried and trued platform carries on...
Nice try by Topspeed but that doesn't amount to much.

Agreed on the "tried" but not so much on the "true". Sure, some key basics are there in the 370 with the all-aluminum suspension and especially the use of front double-wishbones rather than MacPherson struts. But Nissan just failed to put together a convincing sportscar with the 370Z (at least as judged by current standards), according to the more honest reviewers out there. Take Savagegeese's recent review of the Nismo, in which both he and his co-reviewer blasted the Z for feeling like it had "50 pounds of rubber" in the manual shift linkage and the steering, and loathed its artificial engine noise.

It's going to take a lot of work on Nissan's part to get the new car right, unless all they plan to do is give us an updated Japanese musclecar. If we find they have stayed with that sub-par viscous LSD, we probably have our answer....
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Nice try by Topspeed but that doesn't amount to much.

Agreed on the "tried" but not so much on the "true". Sure, some key basics are there in the 370 with the all-aluminum suspension and especially the use of front double-wishbones rather than MacPherson struts. But Nissan just failed to put together a convincing sportscar with the 370Z (at least as judged by current standards), according to the more honest reviewers out there. Take Savagegeese's recent review of the Nismo, in which both he and his co-reviewer blasted the Z for feeling like it had "50 pounds of rubber" in the manual shift linkage and the steering, and loathed its artificial engine noise.

It's going to take a lot of work on Nissan's part to get the new car right, unless all they plan to do is give us an updated Japanese musclecar. If we find they have stayed with that sub-par viscous LSD, we probably have our answer....
You're right about all those, I was keying more in the areas of brake fade issues and CSC. Nissan had homework to correct and hope it will reflect on the new Z. It has to keep up, chassis wise, with the other RWD platforms out there like GR86, Supra, Miata, even Camaro and Mustang. It certainly will have enough power whether good sounding or not; aftermarket exhaust will easily resolve that part though.
 

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You're right about all those, I was keying more in the areas of brake fade issues and CSC. Nissan had homework to correct and hope it will reflect on the new Z. It has to keep up, chassis wise, with the other RWD platforms out there like GR86, Supra, Miata, even Camaro and Mustang. It certainly will have enough power whether good sounding or not; aftermarket exhaust will easily resolve that part though.
The power will be nice - I have taken the data from the Red Sport's dynos and given a 370Z in Assetto Corso that engine, and it's fun to drive even virtually.
 

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How did you do that? With a simulator?
Assetto Corsa is a driving/racing sim. You can find a car editor for it which allows you to unpack an encrypted car data file from the sim and modify it. I made a copy of the sim's 370Z and input the red sport engine values (torque at rpm) in the relevant file. I also edited the transmission to a 9 spd paddle shift.
 

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Nice try by Topspeed but that doesn't amount to much.

Agreed on the "tried" but not so much on the "true". Sure, some key basics are there in the 370 with the all-aluminum suspension and especially the use of front double-wishbones rather than MacPherson struts. But Nissan just failed to put together a convincing sportscar with the 370Z (at least as judged by current standards), according to the more honest reviewers out there. Take Savagegeese's recent review of the Nismo, in which both he and his co-reviewer blasted the Z for feeling like it had "50 pounds of rubber" in the manual shift linkage and the steering, and loathed its artificial engine noise.

It's going to take a lot of work on Nissan's part to get the new car right, unless all they plan to do is give us an updated Japanese musclecar. If we find they have stayed with that sub-par viscous LSD, we probably have our answer....
These takes on the 370Z absolutely kill me.

When we say failed to put together a convincing sports car, failed how? Sales? Performance? Performance for dollar?

On sales - the 370Z launched during a severe economic downtown (one of the largest financial crises in history), and it was based largely upon a winning formula in the 350Z that launched during an economic boom and a sports car resurgence, and sold very well. The business case for the 370Z was to make some small tweaks to the 350Z formula and keep riding the wave, but the design and implementation of the car were set in stone in the 18 months before the bottom fell out. So the launch was not good, resulting sales were not good, and by the time people started buying toy cars again, it was already 4-6 years old. Sales numbers alone for the 370Z are not good, but looking at the car as a failed sports car based on that isn't good.

On performance - closer to what was stated here based on the platform and packaging - "at least as judged by current standards". This take is silly. By that same logic, we're saying the Nintendo Entertainment System just wasn't a convincing video game platform compared to today's standard of PlayStation. Things have changed significantly in 12 years. When the 370Z launched, pony cars were only cracking 350hp with their V8s. When the 350Z launched, it was making V8 power with a V6 and it could take a corner. Today's pony cars have evolved in response to things like that - they make monster power and can handle exceptionally well... at least the ones that have had a platform redesign since 2009 anyway (I'm looking at you, Challenger). Today's definition of sports car has clearly changed - there's more concessions in what makes a sports car a sports car, and the takes on that are more subjective than ever. Some people consider a FWD hatchback a sports car while others consider two seat rear drive cars only to be sports cars and nothing else. Is a Leaf a sports car because it can outrun a Subaru BRZ 0-60? I'm not sure a BRZ is a convincing sports car if an electric hippopotamus on four wheels can rip it on the 1/4 mile.

Finally - what are today's standards? Not having simulated engine noise in the cabin? BMW M cars, Ford Mustangs, and VW GTIs all do this. 50 pounds of rubber in the shifting linkage? There's a $200 aftermarket part for that if you don't like the way it feels. Each of the aforementioned cars (that even offer a manual transmission anymore!) have upgrades available to shifters to enhance the feel based on preference. Because the feel of something like that is preference. I never had a problem with how my Z shifted, but some like to nitpick it. I'm not saying it was the best (one of the best shifting cars I ever drove was a Honda S2000), but I have absolutely driven worse (Chevy Camaro).

It's NOT going to take a lot of work to get this car right. Right in a sports car is so subjective these days - any of the people out there nitpicking stuff aren't buying anything because what's for sale isn't what they've got in their garage. Auto "enthusiasts" have become the worst form of hipster in the world today. In 10 years, the same group that panned the 370Z as a sports car failure will miss the "character of the Z's organic shifting feel", the "old school rear differential that has a soul to it that torque vectoring motors just don't" and "the direct feel of a hydraulic power-steering system on a rack and pinion setup" while wondering why cars like the Z no longer exist.

What is right is that they're building this car in the face of wildly changing world economic conditions and increasingly restrictive environmental standards while being cash strapped as a company and severely impeded with supply chain issues amidst a global pandemic. It's got 2 seats. It's got a pair of turbos. It's going to make more power than the last Z. It's putting power out of the rear wheels. It's not going to be severely heavy. It brings modern technology into a package that acknowledges today's standards for a sports car while paying tribute to every single version of the Z that came before it (which by the way, is the longest running sports car nameplate in the world not named Corvette - maybe there's something right about it?) at an appropriate price point for the kind of sports car it brings to the table.

Stupid take. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
 

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Wow, someone's buttons got pushed.

Nissan did next to nothing over the last 10+ years to keep the car competitive as a sports car. Don't take my word for it, or that of 370 fans, read/watch the more objective reviews. For example, take the recent critiques the 370Z gets from two respected reviewers, Chris Harris and Savagegeese, which make its limitations very clear. My point was that for the new car to be competitive in 2022 Nissan must address the widely acknowledged weaknesses in the 370's handling, steering response, and transmission and fix its very dated interior. Whether they can do so under the constraint of staying with basically the same chassis and suspension used in the 370 remains to be seen. I hope they can, I'd love to get one if they succeed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Good points from both of you @Devon and @RicerX. My gauge of performance success is what I see on track/race events where there are still plenty of 350Zs, actually more than 370Zs, being competitive out there with proper upgrades. The platform is good even if the technology is not keeping up over the years. After all, the Z is targeted for basic sports car design - RWD, wishbone control arms, LSD, etc. I’m glad it’s not going the direction of the R35 GT-R. Must keep driver involvement up and foremost. I see the new Z being an improvement over the existing platform, not much more beyond that, which is good. Don’t overwhelm it with too much driver assists and complicated electronics impacting reliability. This also lets the aftermarket able to access the Z more for upgrades.
 

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Wow, someone's buttons got pushed.

Nissan did next to nothing in the last 10+ years to keep the car competitive as a sports car. Don't take my word for it, read the reviews. For example the critiques it gets from two respected reviewers, Chris Harris and Savagegeese, make its limitations very clear. My point was that for the new car to be competitive it must address the known weaknesses in the 370's handling, steering feel, and transmission and fix its very dated interior. Whether it can do so while saying with basically the same chassis and suspension used in the 370 remains to be seen.
Eh not really buttons pushed. Just annoyed at trends that kill cars like the Z and that will eventually send us into an oblivion of electrified enclosed laptops that drive us places.

I never argued the car hadn't been updated in over 10 years, but there's a whole different set of reasons for that, and those have little to do with your original statement. The original statement you made was that they failed to make a convincing sports car, at least by today's standards. What does that even mean? Because Chris Harris says it had limitations? Limitations compared to what? A $70k Cayman? A $25k BRZ? All cars have limitations. With any purchase of anything, a consumer strives to find which set of limitations best fit his use case and ergo are worthy of his money. Are the 370Zs limitations so... limited... they leave you unconvinced the car serves as a sports car? Give me a break. While I appreciate Chris Harris' technical input, I'm sure it's easy to find glaringly obvious shortcomings in a $40k 370Z right after spending most of your seat time daily driving 911s - all of it is in perspective. Guys like that give opinions on things that the average sports car buyer on a $30k budget would never even get to on their own without help from a dude with a lot of experience in race car driving, a lot of technical skill, and finally, bias towards his own preferences.

I see people pontificate on what this car needs to do "to be competitive" when they don't understand where the car actually competes, what's realistically attainable from a performance standpoint within the confines of what the market deems to be an acceptable price point, and after critiquing and setting the internet ablaze with their wisdom, buy a $20k used BRZ because they could never afford a $40k performance car in the first place, and follow up with "well I bought a BRZ because it's better". It's not better, it was just a better fit for them. And those buyers don't drive car markets. Buyers of new cars do.

Chris Harris never owned a BRZ or a 370Z because he can afford Porsches. That's not an indictment on the Z, that's an indictment on his personal preference based on his personal budget. I think the Z is a great car for what it does, but if I decide my sports car budget in September is $70k instead of $40k? I'm probably buying a GT-R. Doesn't mean the Z isn't a good sports car, it's what I wanted to do with my money. Some might say "but if it was truly great you'd buy it before you bought the GT-R". Not an opinion based on reality for two reasons. 1) sports cars are a vanity purchase. Whether consciously or subconsciously, you're considering the image that comes with owning a certain type of cool car. If you can afford more, that's coming into your decision-making process one way or another, and a Porsche carries more clout than a Nissan. 2) If everyone could build something and sell it for half the price of its "competition" with twice the performance capability, half the carmakers in the world would be out of business. I don't compare used cars to new cars either, because when you do that, you're down to your personal budget dictating your purchase parameters and preferences. Yeah, you can get a Z06 Corvette for less than a Z. You can get a used Ferrari for less than a new Z too. Does it make the Z a poor sports car?
 

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Chris Harris' personal car buying budget and preferences are largely irrelevant here, his comparison between the 370Z and the GT86 stands on its own. He's a very skilled and experienced driver with a racing license who does a great job describing how cars respond on the road. And the simple fact is that he (and others like Savagegeese) find the handling of the less-expensive Toyobaru twins to be substantially better when pushed hard than that of the Z.

It's self-evident that many considerations beyond a car's handling and road feel feed into most enthusiasts' purchasing decisions. But handling, road feel, and agility are all major factors in generating a high-level sports car experience, and IMO Nissan really needs to step it up in these areas to have a strong position in the market, now that even 4 cylinder pony cars can be optioned with performance and track packages that give them impressive handling, and a few hot hatches like the CTR have largely overcome the handling limitations of FWD.
 

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Your consistency in evasion is admirable.

Completely disagree that his personal preferences are irrelevant. No one conducting reviews on anything does so without his own preference coming into the picture. Not you, not me, not Chris Harris. If that's the case, then enjoy his YouTube catalog before Google AI takes his job. If no one had their own preferences in play, there wouldn't be 5 million car reviewers on YouTube. Some are better bringing educated opinions to the table than others because they can utilize their technical background and experience with the subject matter. Some just regurgitate what they've already seen from other people.

It's self-evident that many considerations beyond a car's handling and road feel feed into most enthusiasts' purchasing decisions. But handling, road feel, and agility are all major factors in generating a high-level sports car experience, and IMO Nissan really needs to step it up in these areas to have a strong position in the market, now that even 4 cylinder pony cars can be optioned with handling and track packages that give them impressive handling.
So what's the Z's market? Is it someone looking for a sports car on a budget, or is it someone that wants to go fast for $35k? Those may be the same thing for you, but they're not the same thing. And if handling is the only key factor in the sports car experience, why is there anything even on the market past the Miata?

Is a Z meant to provide a "high-level sports car experience"? Is a 4-cylinder pony car supposed to do that? Better yet, does it? How much road feel is in an Ecoboost Mustang with EPS? Is it better than a Z? Does the Z target an Ecoboost Mustang as its benchmark in pricing, or does it simply "cost almost the same amount of money". As far as "high-level sports car experiences" go, I would consider a 911 Turbo a high-level experience. Corvette Z06. BMW M4 Competition.

You keep bringing up hot hatches. Hot hatches are a sum of compromises from any other type of car. Always have been. They have extra doors, extra seats, and extra storage to accommodate daily, practical use while also being fun to drive, providing an element from each type of vehicle out there that is the best at each attribute they possess. Not as practical as a truck/SUV, not as bleeding edge in performance as a pure sports car. They have gotten immensely better over the past decade and are extremely compelling options if you want a car that does it all. They're extremely popular because they allow people to have a piece of each pie without having to buy multiple pies. If you're cross-shopping that, it's because you can't do one of each and need both, and you're not the buyer Nissan is targeting with the Z. You yourself may cross-shop because of your intended use case, and when you decide which of those attributes is truly required in your car, you will purchase the one that fulfills that need. The Z is a pure sports car that some may justify having as a daily driver.

Let's ditch the arbitrary and make a stance - if you have $35k to buy a new sports car for the purpose of obtaining a pure sports car experience, what do you buy and why? What are your options for that money that is a pure sports car? I'm asking because you say Nissan needs to do better, better than what? To be considered a success... better than what? We can all do better for improvement's sake. What does the Z need to be better than?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·

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I believe Nissan drastically reduced production on these final years, or they're being snatched up by Z fans and BaT hopefuls. I searched here in the US, none. Anyone here bought one of the final 2020 models? Were there any Nismos at all?


View attachment 1373
Just went on the Nissan website and when you click on the 370Z it says sold out and leads you to the pre-owned inventory.

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I'm not sure a [insert any] is a convincing sports car if an electric hippopotamus on four wheels can rip it on the 1/4 mile.
I think I am going to refer to that one later.

Both funny, and both capable and not condemning of long-form commentary... I think I may have found a home.

Ricer X and Devon both make good points.

I often wonder, and try to discern for myself how wide the margins of comparisons are... hyperbole and hyper-focus tend to lose sight of the forest for an up close examination and evaluation of a few trees.

Whether you watch Chris Harris, Savagegeese, Doug DeMuro, JayEmm, Shmee150, Matt Farah, or any number of people, on any number of topics, it can be challenging to parse their opinions, due to the context.

It may be subconscious, it may be unintentional, or may be it is intentional... but what you've driven before informs what you think about what you are driving now. Experience informs critical thinking.

Not only that, but the nature of presenting information to people depends on keeping attention and interest, which fosters and motivates drawing comparisons clearly, even if the relative margin of the differences may be smaller than they are portrayed.

But I also don't think most reviewers are trying to be intentionally misleading, and are trying to get real information out there. They highlight differences because that is what makes the difference between appeal and not.

Bringing that back to 370, fundamentally, it was not a bad car. Good layout, good floorplan, good suspension format, good pricetag.

But that isn't the whole story... it was a bad aesthetic move. There are aspects of the suspension, engine, and other tuning aspects as stock that aren't necessarily ideal, and show cost cutting and lack of Nissan's interest in keeping the car competitive. A basic interior is one thing... an interior that doesn't look or feel good enough for the car's cost is a small degree of change, that makes a big difference in demand, just like controversial or poorly received aesthetics.

Letting something stagnate, especially something that wasn't cutting edge in the first place, when 370 succeeded 350, is further problematic. It led Doug DeMuro to say that the 370Z had no business being sold as a new car last year, because a fully depreciated used car 10 model years older is functionally no different other than having been used.

The flip side is why Z35 Nissan Z can be a success, even based on an evolution of 350 and 370Z before it... because relatively minor and acheivable differences can be made without re-invention, just a bit more care and tuning the product attributes that are already there, and an eye for aesthetics and appeal.

The things that make BRZ and 86 affordable, but yet good handling, can be implemented with Z's better suspension design. More power will make Z the better road car overall as well, by not having to drive it like Ricky Bobby all the time to make it perform. Maybe the CoG won't be quite as low, but the suspension is a better, more geometrically advantageous design. If Nissan doesn't perfect it, the aftermarket can.

The new interior with the gauge screen, and dash design, and 10 year advancements in materials can help the interior.

We can already see that the exterior design is immediately better looking, and even Z35's slightly debateable front end is still better than most angles of the 370Z's appearance and proportions, even based on the same chassis hardpoint dimensions.

It isn't going to be a Porsche. It isn't going to be a muscle-car like a Mustang V8, or even the same as a Mustang minus the V8... It isn't a BRZ, either.

But hopefully it will be a great return to what has made Nissan Z appealing in the past... a great mix of style, substance, and attainability for a 2-seat sports car that isn't the same thing as everything else on the market.
 
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