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Welcome to 2022. Gone are the days of cheap vehicles people. When a $200,000 house is now $650,000. A $40,000 car is now $60,000. It's not the 90's anymore. Inflation's a bitch, aint it ?
Pretty sure everyone expected this Z to cost more then the 370z, there wasn't any doubt there.
A 370z Nismo MSRP was like $48k so the Performance trim being $51-53k I would say is a bit surprising.
But regardless the inflation stuff doesn't justify how it compares to the competition, price and performance wise?
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Welcome to 2022. Gone are the days of cheap vehicles people. When a $200,000 house is now $650,000. A $40,000 car is now $60,000. It's not the 90's anymore. Inflation's a bitch, aint it ?
Very true. But there are still some decently priced performance cars, if you can find them in today's supply chain limited market. It took me about 3 months to find one, but my 2022 Camaro SS 1LE 6M, even at MSRP of $46k, is a great value relative to its performance. BTW Chevy increased the price of the car by $2k for the 2023 model year, including the increase in shipping. At $50k plus I'm just not sure that the new Z, Performance trim, is worth the coin relative to its performance and competition.
 

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Good discussion here. I'm on the fence about staying with my reservation for the Z. I'd agree that the reviews have been lukewarm, and several have mentioned a lack of steering feel which is anathema to me. I thought the 370Z had decent feel, but would not settle for less. And given my urban environment with its traffic and police, one of the twins might be a better match performance-wise and save me $20k. I would really miss the rev-matching though.
 

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Welcome to 2022. Gone are the days of cheap vehicles people. When a $200,000 house is now $650,000. A $40,000 car is now $60,000. It's not the 90's anymore. Inflation's a bitch, aint it ?
Yeah, this isn't inflation, at least not mostly. This is Nissan's deliberate pricing strategy. I've gone over ad nauseum the roughly 30% year-over-year increase in the MSRP of the Z (last base model offered in 2020 vs current base model) and its just not something we're seeing industry-wide. Find us another example of this (outside of maybe some specific exotic) in the automotive landscape.

Nissan priced the base model where they wanted to price it, and then chose to omit any other trims outside of stripped-down and fully-loaded in all markets outside of Japan. At least for the launch, which may just be due to production capacity issues, in fairness. But that's the complaint, as far as I can tell.
 

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Nissan did a great job overall. I love the looks, they improved the sound, it's got a nostalgia feel about it, it's fast, and most importantly it seems fun.

However, at the end of the day price point matters. It's not out of consideration for me, but I was 100% a buyer of this car until

I think it’s incredibly naive to expect a vehicle like this to be any cheaper than it is.
Welcome to 2022. Gone are the days of cheap vehicles people. When a $200,000 house is now $650,000. A $40,000 car is now $60,000. It's not the 90's anymore. Inflation's a bitch, aint it ?
Yup. Why people are comparing this vehicle to Camaros and Mustangs is silly. Go get one of those- there are millions to choose from. We live in an entirely different world from 2 years ago. Camaro and Mustang have been here and won’t change. I’m happy that I won’t see 6 Z’s on my way to work unlike the latter. This car is impractical and painful to wait for- but that’s pretty much what we are paying for. I’m beyond excited.
 

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Yup. Why people are comparing this vehicle to Camaros and Mustangs is silly. Go get one of those- there are millions to choose from. We live in an entirely different world from 2 years ago. Camaro and Mustang have been here and won’t change. I’m happy that I won’t see 6 Z’s on my way to work unlike the latter. This car is impractical and painful to wait for- but that’s pretty much what we are paying for. I’m beyond excited.
I'm also happy that Z's remain relatively uncommon compared to other (specifically American) sports cars. That's part of the allure for me. Having said that, you're probably right that using Mustangs and Camaros and even Corvettes to illustrate how not every sports car is seeing this level of MSRP increase might be unfair given that all of those have far higher production numbers (both expected and real). So we should probably use the Z's most obvious direct competitor - the Supra. Similar type of exclusivity/production expectations to the Z, no? Shouldn't the Supra be rapidly increasing its MSRP what with this climate of inflation?

Base 3.0:
2020 - From $49,990
2021 - From $51,090
2022 - From $51,890
2023 - From $51,945

Total increase = 3.9% (approx)

My point is that it's both deeply reductionist and also just not accurate to blame the new Z's pricing entirely (or even mostly) on inflation. Obviously the base 2023 Z was going to cost more than the base 2020 Z. But 30% more is a bit much. Even if we accept that (what choice do we have?), it can still be argued that Nissan would do well to at least freeze that base price for the foreseeable future and add in more trims across the range to fill in the massive gap that currently exists.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Yup. Why people are comparing this vehicle to Camaros and Mustangs is silly. Go get one of those- there are millions to choose from. We live in an entirely different world from 2 years ago. Camaro and Mustang have been here and won’t change. I’m happy that I won’t see 6 Z’s on my way to work unlike the latter. This car is impractical and painful to wait for- but that’s pretty much what we are paying for. I’m beyond excited.
People are comparing the Z to Camaros and Mustangs because they are legitimate competition for the Z, at least in certain trims and price ranges. Yes, there are millions of each of those cars out there, but at the same time they offer so many different variations of each car that they appeal to a much broader overall market than the Z does. For example, in the Camaro you can get a turbo 4, a V6, a V8 or a supercharged V8. That's a wide spectrum of powertrain options. Likely only the V8 Camaros (LT1, SS and 1LE) are direct competition for the Z. The ZL1 with the supercharged V8 is in a completely different price range and class. The Z is in a smaller niche that appeals to far fewer folks. And you will see less of them on the road.
 

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People are comparing the Z to Camaros and Mustangs because they are legitimate competition for the Z, at least in certain trims and price ranges. Yes, there are millions of each of those cars out there, but at the same time they offer so many different variations of each car that they appeal to a much broader overall market than the Z does. For example, in the Camaro you can get a turbo 4, a V6, a V8 or a supercharged V8. That's a wide spectrum of powertrain options. Likely only the V8 Camaros (LT1, SS and 1LE) are direct competition for the Z. The ZL1 with the supercharged V8 is in a completely different price range and class. The Z is in a smaller niche that appeals to far fewer folks. And you will see less of them on the road.
I think I found the difference between my view point and most people in this thread. Camaro and Mustang are not competition to this vehicle. Competition on the streets as a fast car, yes. Competition in regards to spending 45k+, no. I don’t want a Camaro that every army recruit with a 590 credit score has. I don’t want the Supra that looks like a 1990s hot wheels car. It’s not in the same discussion as far as performance matched with visual appeal and vintage history. My dad had a 280. I couldn’t consider anything else at this price point, honestly. I’m sorry to hear everyone is already mad about this car. Buy it first. Lose your money. Keep it until you die. It doesn’t really matter when you have one. lol but stop whining about ridiculous and impractical sports cars being over priced by a few thousand dollars. Looks like most of us car save up that extra 5 grand because we’re not getting into these things until fall.
 

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I don’t want the Supra that looks like a 1990s hot wheels car. It’s not in the same discussion as far as performance matched with visual appeal and vintage history.
That you are disinterested in the Supra does not disqualify it as the primary market competitor for the Zed any more than being disinterested in a Mustang (or unimpressed by its styling or heritage credibility) nullifies its position as the Camaro's primary market competitor.
 

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You must know something the rest of us don’t.
Na I'm just speculating based at all on how they staggered the pricing for the initial two trims and at the same time factoring in it being hopefully more than wheels and a body kit. I used to known a bunch of stuff about the direction things were headed in GTR world but I'm flying totally blind on the Z. Whole new group of people heading up product planning now
 

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Now that specific details regarding the new Z have been released and the automotive talking heads have been able to drive the Z and even compare it to other cars, I'm somewhat disappointed with the 2023 Z. I'm interested to hear what others think about the 2023 Z based on what we know so far.

Some background. I've owned several Zs over the years including most recently a 2003 350Z, which I purchased new and I still own, and a 370Z which I don't still own. I've also owned other sports cars since the mid 2000s including a C6 Corvette, a BMW and currently a Camaro SS 1LE, all but one of which had manual transmissions. My 350Z is probably my favorite car I've ever owned. It never ceases to bring a smile to my face when I drive it. It also probably has $20k worth of mods over the time I've owned it.

While I love the exterior styling of the 2023 Z as well as the twin turbo V6, I'm somewhat disappointed that the car isn't all new, but instead a significantly revised 370Z. I know that Nissan was trying to cut costs in order to keep the car's price from being too high. After all it had to be competitive in the market. However, the pricing is also a disappointment to me. Not the price of the base Z. It's pricing is pretty good, except it lacks many of the features sports car owners want. The Performance being $10k more than the base Z and over $50k total is what disappoints me the most. I was hoping the Performance would be closer to $45k, especially since much of the car, like the chassis, the brakes, most of the suspension and the manual transmission, is essentially carry over. It's not quite the bargain sports car it used to be. And the performance doesn't really match its current competition either. The 3.0 (Z)Supra is clearly better in every performance category, although I'm not a fan of its styling. BMW engines are notoriously underrated so I suspect it is actually more powerful than the Z. And the Supra is finally going to be available with a manual for the 2023 model year.

My other current car, a 2022 Camaro SS 1LE 6M is also a significantly better performing car than the 2023 Z and it cost right at $46k. In my opinion its the best performance value on the market right now. Of course GM has an economy of scale advantage over Nissan when it comes to building performance cars, so it can build them cheaper. And before you knock the 1LE as an American muscle car, if you don't know, you should research what it is. It's basically a car you can take from the showroom floor straight to your local racetrack (not dragstrip) without any modifications. It's that good.

I don't want to come across that I'm not a Z fan. I'm a huge Z fan. Just disappointed in what the new Z is. This time last year I was all set to order the 2023 Z when it came out. But due to delays in the release of the car I decided to pursue another car that I had been looking at off and on since 2019, the 1LE. In hindsight I'm glad I did. As the more I found out about the new Z the more disappointed I became. Now, I'm thinking about waiting for the Nismo Z. But at the same time I'm wondering how much it will cost. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have the new Z, but I'm not willing to pay in excess of $50k for it or the inevitable dealer mark ups to get one of the first year models.
You’ve underestimated one crucial fact. Nissan simply couldn’t afford a clean-slate Z or anything close to it. Why? The company’s finances still suck from Ghosn’s decimation of R&D budgets having left Nissan with a legacy of relatively uninspired, passionless and crappy cars. We’re EXTREMELY lucky to have a substantially updated “new-ish” Z as the FM platform was already in the works when he took the reins. Remember, the Z is the ONLY six cylinder Japanese sports car available in the US as the Supra is just a fugly BMW. Here’s a nod to SNL/Mike Meyers: The MKV Supra from Japanese automaker, Toyota, is neither a Supra nor Japanese… discuss. EVERY new car that comes out is a compromise one way or the other. Look at the Supra - HEINOUS AND IT’S NOT EVEN A REAL TOYOTA!!!! That was the ultimate compromise, one which most Supra fans despise to this day. I was patiently waiting for and saving for a MKV Supra until I found out it’d be a BMW (pass), then saw photos of it (YECCCHHH, pass) and learned it’d be auto-only (that’s the 3rd pass). Who cares that the MKV is tenths better than the Z? It’s wince-inducing looks, automatic-only (for now) and German guts are antithetical to the Japanese sports car formula. That led me to buy a cream puff of a G37S Coupe 6MT four years ago. It’s a car I love but would reluctantly trade in if the right trim/model emerges. Nissan will hopefully acquiesce to the overwhelming support for a mid-tier option (a Sport model with the LSD & larger brakes) for $45/6K or so. If they don’t, then yeah, it’ll suck paying $50K for a Performance. I’m personally waiting for that mid tier option or a Nismo (definitely under $60K), whichever comes first because I won’t be forced into buying something I don’t want. If it doesn’t happen, I’ll just mod my G for added hp. As for your SS 1LE 6M, no apologies need to be made. It’s an unqualified great car, but if one wants a classic Japanese sports car, the Camaro, Mustang, MKV, etc. aren’t options. There’s a little known song from the 70’s I like, “Be Thankful For What You Got”. We’ve got a new Z so be thankful… Words to live by.
 

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That you are disinterested in the Supra does not disqualify it as the primary market competitor for the Zed any more than being disinterested in a Mustang (or unimpressed by its styling or heritage credibility) nullifies its position as the Camaro's primary market competitor.
I said for me.
You’ve underestimated one crucial fact. Nissan simply couldn’t afford a clean-slate Z or anything close to it. Why? The company’s finances still suck from Ghosn’s decimation of R&D budgets having left Nissan with a legacy of relatively uninspired, passionless and crappy cars. We’re EXTREMELY lucky to have a substantially updated “new-ish” Z as the FM platform was already in the works when he took the reins. Remember, the Z is the ONLY six cylinder Japanese sports car available in the US as the Supra is just a fugly BMW. Here’s a nod to SNL/Mike Meyers: The MKV Supra from Japanese automaker, Toyota, is neither a Supra nor Japanese… discuss. EVERY new car that comes out is a compromise one way or the other. Look at the Supra - HEINOUS AND IT’S NOT EVEN A REAL TOYOTA!!!! That was the ultimate compromise, one which most Supra fans despise to this day. I was patiently waiting for and saving for a MKV Supra until I found out it’d be a BMW (pass), then saw photos of it (YECCCHHH, pass) and learned it’d be auto-only (that’s the 3rd pass). Who cares that the MKV is tenths better than the Z? It’s wince-inducing looks, automatic-only (for now) and German guts are antithetical to the Japanese sports car formula. That led me to buy a cream puff of a G37S Coupe 6MT four years ago. It’s a car I love but would reluctantly trade in if the right trim/model emerges. Nissan will hopefully acquiesce to the overwhelming support for a mid-tier option (a Sport model with the LSD & larger brakes) for $45/6K or so. If they don’t, then yeah, it’ll suck paying $50K for a Performance. I’m personally waiting for that mid tier option or a Nismo (definitely under $60K), whichever comes first because I won’t be forced into buying something I don’t want. If it doesn’t happen, I’ll just mod my G for added hp. As for your SS 1LE 6M, no apologies need to be made. It’s an unqualified great car, but if one wants a classic Japanese sports car, the Camaro, Mustang, MKV, etc. aren’t options. There’s a little known song from the 70’s I like, “Be Thankful For What You Got”. We’ve got a new Z so be thankful… Words to live by.
couldn’t agree more, pal. Well said.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
You’ve underestimated one crucial fact. Nissan simply couldn’t afford a clean-slate Z or anything close to it. Why? The company’s finances still suck from Ghosn’s decimation of R&D budgets having left Nissan with a legacy of relatively uninspired, passionless and crappy cars. We’re EXTREMELY lucky to have a substantially updated “new-ish” Z as the FM platform was already in the works when he took the reins. Remember, the Z is the ONLY six cylinder Japanese sports car available in the US as the Supra is just a fugly BMW. Here’s a nod to SNL/Mike Meyers: The MKV Supra from Japanese automaker, Toyota, is neither a Supra nor Japanese… discuss. EVERY new car that comes out is a compromise one way or the other. Look at the Supra - HEINOUS AND IT’S NOT EVEN A REAL TOYOTA!!!! That was the ultimate compromise, one which most Supra fans despise to this day. I was patiently waiting for and saving for a MKV Supra until I found out it’d be a BMW (pass), then saw photos of it (YECCCHHH, pass) and learned it’d be auto-only (that’s the 3rd pass). Who cares that the MKV is tenths better than the Z? It’s wince-inducing looks, automatic-only (for now) and German guts are antithetical to the Japanese sports car formula. That led me to buy a cream puff of a G37S Coupe 6MT four years ago. It’s a car I love but would reluctantly trade in if the right trim/model emerges. Nissan will hopefully acquiesce to the overwhelming support for a mid-tier option (a Sport model with the LSD & larger brakes) for $45/6K or so. If they don’t, then yeah, it’ll suck paying $50K for a Performance. I’m personally waiting for that mid tier option or a Nismo (definitely under $60K), whichever comes first because I won’t be forced into buying something I don’t want. If it doesn’t happen, I’ll just mod my G for added hp. As for your SS 1LE 6M, no apologies need to be made. It’s an unqualified great car, but if one wants a classic Japanese sports car, the Camaro, Mustang, MKV, etc. aren’t options. There’s a little known song from the 70’s I like, “Be Thankful For What You Got”. We’ve got a new Z so be thankful… Words to live by.
I realize Nissan has financial issues and that it could not afford a clean-slate Z. That to me is what is so disappointing about the price, especially in Performance trim. Toyota also had the benefit of partnering with BMW on the new Zupra in order to get a new chassis and keep costs somewhat in check. It will be really interesting to see, after the initial sales frenzy, how well the new Z does in the long run. After the die hard Z fans get theirs will the car still be relevant in the sports car market or will get go the way of the 370Z? More trim levels would help. And maybe that's Nissan's plan. Sell mostly the Performance trim to Z enthusiasts the first year and then offer other trims here in the U.S.
 

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I realize Nissan has financial issues and that it could not afford a clean-slate Z. That to me is what is so disappointing about the price, especially in Performance trim. Toyota also had the benefit of partnering with BMW on the new Zupra in order to get a new chassis and keep costs somewhat in check. It will be really interesting to see, after the initial sales frenzy, how well the new Z does in the long run. After the die hard Z fans get theirs will the car still be relevant in the sports car market or will get go the way of the 370Z? More trim levels would help. And maybe that's Nissan's plan. Sell mostly the Performance trim to Z enthusiasts the first year and then offer other trims here in the U.S.
I don’t view Toyota’s choice to rebadge a BMW Z4 as a benefit. I think it was a huge mistake as it alienated most Supra fans and potential buyers (myself included). As I’ve said numerous times here and elsewhere they could’ve done the MKV in-house using a rear drive Lexus platform, the V6TT (409hp+) or even hybridized it (430hp+) and it would’ve sold well at $60K-$70K. That also would’ve left the door open to give the Toyobaru twins the optional turbo power they deserve to fill in the gap beneath the Supra. But I digress. I, too, hope the Z does well long-term (we all do) and full expect a mid-tier trim as well as the eventual Nismo. I’m only really interested in those two trims anyway. I’m not concerned about the performance gap between the Z and MKV or any other car for that matter. Most Z fans love the look and that it’s a genuine Japanese six cylinder sports car - the ONLY one available - and it’s a more classic and tasteful sports car that the MKV, more athletic than a Mustang, and in stock trim it has enough meat on the bone to satisfy all but the younger “numbers are all that matter” punky set of buyers. Further, many will mod the car to tailor its performance to well over 500hp and there’ll be huge aftermarket support for the Z so there’s something for everyone. Let’s just hope whoever it is at Nissan that has a hard-on for Bridgestone tires gets the axe (or the bean counters wise-up) so they can charge us a couple hundred more for better Michelin rubber.
 

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I think all comparisons are legit, because each of us places more value on some attributes versus others.

BTW I wouldn’t say the Z is more athletic than a Mustang. The GT mostly beat it (actually Mach 1; see my next post) in all the popular performance areas… 0 to 60, quarter-mile, lateral acceleration, braking, etc. Will that gap close with better tires? Likely. But that’s the data that we have right now.

I love the looks of the Z and the fact that they are (and will continue to be) a rare sight. I also dig the nostalgia. It certainly is the best-looking car of the four I was considering.

The Miatas and GR86’s are also rare sights where I drive, where every other car is either a Tesla, a CRV or it’s Korean equivalent. Believe it or not, Mustangs are relatively uncommon and I don’t see one every day.

I eliminated the Mazda and the GR86 as candidates mostly because I don’t want to be beat 0 to 60 by well-equipped factory Accord (look it up if you don’t believe me). Regardless of the Accord’s performance, they just don’t have enough punch for me.

That left the Z and the Mustang. The Stang is not the best-looking of the cars I was considering, but the equipment that comes with the one I want is pretty amazing, especially for $38K. Locking diff included. In fact I don’t even think they make a Mustang without a locking diff now. Also I am always hesitant about buying a new car in the first year of its existence. So another hit against the Z. The Mustang and its tech are well-established Lastly, when are these things even going to become available and when they are available, how much over MSRP are we going to have to pay? I can get a Mustang for MSRP. Back to the GR86, they wanted $7000 over MSRP, pushing it close to $40K.

The Supra is just not attractive to me. The rear end reminds me of a new Camry and the rest of it looks like a car out of the movie “Cars“. But to each his own.

I am close to putting a deposit down on a Mustang, which, by the way, is fully refundable, so there’s really nothing to lose. Also nice is that in general, cars are holding their value so if for some reason I want to change over to the Z, it won’t be ridiculously expensive.

They really shouldn’t be selling a car that has 400 HP with an open diff. That’s just nuts.

Maybe in 2023 I’ll be able to get a Z ‘sport’ with a $2,500 locking diff option.
 

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Really can’t go wrong with a Mustang (Mach I) or a Z (Performance), so enjoy the Stang of you get it. By athletic I was referring to directional changes and tossability, not acceleration. As for the Z’s tires, I’d change them to Michelins right away.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
My bad; it was the Mach 1, not the GT:

I can't see most people cross shopping the Mach 1 and the Z. I could see people cross shopping the GT and the Z though The Mach 1 is the replacement for the GT350 in the Mustang line up and considerably more expensive. Most of the Mach 1s I've seen are $60k plus. And the Mach 1 is a more limited production model than the GT as well as being more purpose built. The Mach 1's closet competition is probably the 1LE Camaro, which is considerably cheaper than the Mach 1.
 

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My bad; it was the Mach 1, not the GT:

What's most interesting is that, in terms of straight-line performance, the Z actually bested the Mach 1 in this comparison. I don't know how that would translate to the street but it was certainly interesting to see.

That said, this was a strange comparison of vehicles. The base price of the Mach 1 and of the Z Performance are somewhat close, but the Mustang, as tested, is significantly more expensive. Overall, this served as yet another example of how under-tyred the Zed is. Nissan offering only this tire setup is really harming the car's out-of-the-box potential.

2023 Z Performance:
C/D TEST RESULTS
60 mph: 4.5 sec
100 mph: 10.6 sec
1/4-Mile: 13.0 sec @ 111 mph
130 mph: 19.0 sec

2021 Mustang Mach 1:
C/D TEST RESULTS
60 mph: 4.5 sec
100 mph: 11.2 sec
1/4-Mile: 13.1 sec @ 108 mph
130 mph: 21.3 sec
 
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