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I don't want to come across that I'm not a Z fan. I'm a huge Z fan. Just disappointed in what the new Z is. This time last year I was all set to order the 2023 Z when it came out. But due to delays in the release of the car I decided to pursue another car that I had been looking at off and on since 2019, the 1LE. In hindsight I'm glad I did. As the more I found out about the new Z the more disappointed I became. Now, I'm thinking about waiting for the Nismo Z. But at the same time I'm wondering how much it will cost. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have the new Z, but I'm not willing to pay in excess of $50k for it or the inevitable dealer mark ups to get one of the first year models.
Totally agree. The new Z is very cool but overpriced once you add the performance options every enthusiast wants (LSD, bigger brakes, etc). At $52k, you're just way too close to other epic and significantly more advanced cars on offer. The C43 may not have 2 doors but the Z is big and heavy anyhow, and the C43 now comes with a very advanced interior as well as an AMG 403hp hybrid, 4 piston brakes, etc for $59k. The C8, a mid engine 500hp V8 monster is in an utterly different league and can be had for $62k. The M240i offers backseats, more power (real world tests have shown 380hp to the wheels from this engine!), AWD, a far newer and more luxurious interior, etc.

The Z needed to be a bargain given its old bones. The base car is an interesting value proposition and thats about it.
 

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What's most interesting is that, in terms of straight-line performance, the Z actually bested the Mach 1 in this comparison. I don't know how that would translate to the street but it was certainly interesting to see.

That said, this was a strange comparison of vehicles. The base price of the Mach 1 and of the Z Performance are somewhat close, but the Mustang, as tested, is significantly more expensive. Overall, this served as yet another example of how under-tyred the Zed is. Nissan offering only this tire setup is really harming the car's out-of-the-box potential.

2023 Z Performance:
C/D TEST RESULTS
60 mph: 4.5 sec
100 mph: 10.6 sec
1/4-Mile: 13.0 sec @ 111 mph
130 mph: 19.0 sec

2021 Mustang Mach 1:
C/D TEST RESULTS
60 mph: 4.5 sec
100 mph: 11.2 sec
1/4-Mile: 13.1 sec @ 108 mph
130 mph: 21.3 sec
Mach 1 will destroy it on a road course. Those are all straighline results you've quoted. And in an actual real world drag race the Z fell well behind the Mach 1 to the 1/4 mile, so I really wouldnt take those stats too seriously either.
 

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Totally agree. The new Z is very cool but overpriced once you add the performance options every enthusiast wants (LSD, bigger brakes, etc). At $52k, you're just way too close to other epic and significantly more advanced cars on offer. The C43 may not have 2 doors but the Z is big and heavy anyhow, and the C43 now comes with a very advanced interior as well as an AMG 403hp hybrid, 4 piston brakes, etc for $59k. The C8, a mid engine 500hp V8 monster is in an utterly different league and can be had for $62k. The M240i offers backseats, more power (real world tests have shown 380hp to the wheels from this engine!), AWD, a far newer and more luxurious interior, etc.

The Z needed to be a bargain given its old bones. The base car is an interesting value proposition and thats about it.
All true, though you didn’t mention the Z offering a stick in both trims whereas many of the cars you mentioned are automatic-only. Also, NISSAN may add the Sport + LSD and larger brakes in an as-yet-unavailable mid-tier trim. Time will tell.
 

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Mach 1 will destroy it on a road course. Those are all straighline results you've quoted. And in an actual real world drag race the Z fell well behind the Mach 1 to the 1/4 mile, so I really wouldnt take those stats too seriously either.
Right, I stated that "in terms of straight-line performance, the Z actually bested the Mach 1 in this comparison," so I'm aware that this was the general realm of performance we were referring to. I haven't seen a real-world comparison between the two manual-equipped vehicles, so it's not for me to say which would generally win in either the sprint or the 1/4 mile - though, as both generally come down to traction at launch, I would bet it's the vehicle with the superior tyres. Which is not the Z.
 

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Totally agree. The new Z is very cool but overpriced once you add the performance options every enthusiast wants (LSD, bigger brakes, etc). At $52k, you're just way too close to other epic and significantly more advanced cars on offer. The C43 may not have 2 doors but the Z is big and heavy anyhow, and the C43 now comes with a very advanced interior as well as an AMG 403hp hybrid, 4 piston brakes, etc for $59k. The C8, a mid engine 500hp V8 monster is in an utterly different league and can be had for $62k. The M240i offers backseats, more power (real world tests have shown 380hp to the wheels from this engine!), AWD, a far newer and more luxurious interior, etc.

The Z needed to be a bargain given its old bones. The base car is an interesting value proposition and thats about it.
Not trying to knock the Z so much but..
The new 2022 Audi RS3 at $59,995 is also a new performance monster with great features that is worth considering.
Especially with that monster inline 5.
I'm still probably getting a Z cus I do like it and I love coupes, but the closest things I've considered is the RS3 honestly.
The M240i and Supra are great performers but I'm not big on the interiors.
The Mustang and Camaros are decent price and solid as well, but I feel they are pretty common, and not a platform I care for a whole whole lot.
C8 is crazy performance for price, I could get one for MSRP but it'd be a long long wait.
 

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Only thing is the RS3 probably slightly slower than the TTRS. Which Audi decided to keep making and im sure is 0-60 in 3.7 seconds or even less with DSG.

The Z being heavier and a torque converter Auto it still keeps up with the Supra, although a bit slower.

Then Im not sure if these quarter mile times are affected by weather. Here in EU the Golf R is literally on the M3 backside for the quarter mile. Im thinking TTRS, Supra and new M2 will all be quicker and provide stiff competition. Then you got Golf R and RS3 which are no joke while being more practical. Worth considering other options too for sure
 

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I drove a Mustang GT with an Edelbrock supercharger a couple days ago, and I gotta admit there's no replacement for that thunderous sound. Kinda salty that I'm already paying up to 60k (CAD) for the performance two tone and I still need to go get an exhaust right after. Of course I won't cheap out on the exhaust. It's not a car I can't afford, but I only started my Engineering career less than a year ago and I'd rather spend my surplus on property, more travel, extracurriculars etc. The Z is super special and a beautiful car, but there are other special things in life you know?

Na I'm just speculating based at all on how they staggered the pricing for the initial two trims and at the same time factoring in it being hopefully more than wheels and a body kit. I used to known a bunch of stuff about the direction things were headed in GTR world but I'm flying totally blind on the Z. Whole new group of people heading up product planning now
My guess is the Nismo will have 500 hp and cost what you just described. 65k for a juiced up performance model with warranty. If it doesn't have adaptive suspension, I will laugh.
 

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I dont see a 100hp jump for the NISMO by any means. I see 35-45hp. that is how NISMO operates their philosophy with their cars are about balance and subtle upgrades. none of the NISMO models have drastic power bumps
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
I dont see a 100hp jump for the NISMO by any means. I see 35-45hp. that is how NISMO operates their philosophy with their cars are about balance and subtle upgrades. none of the NISMO models have drastic power bumps
I agree. I expect to see something like 450 hp max in the Nismo Z. It will likely also be better handling and offer more aero, perhaps bigger brakes.
 

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I dont see a 100hp jump for the NISMO by any means. I see 35-45hp. that is how NISMO operates their philosophy with their cars are about balance and subtle upgrades. none of the NISMO models have drastic power bumps
I don't see how they can justify 65k with subtle improvements, but perhaps it will look incredible and that will certainly help. Maybe they will go the Mach 1 route with tons of handling improvements.
 

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one way to look at it is lets say 65K is the target cost for arguments sake. that is only 11K more than the proto and what 13K more than a performance? so realistically NISMO wheels suspension some recaros a aero kit and a engine tune is all your gonna get for 65K. I dont see it costing much more than that or they will price themselves out of the competition. so its an issue of if you want major upgrades then it will cost much more than just 15K over a performance.

for example the current NISMO GTR started out at 150K or about 55K more than the premium model... now it costs 212K roughly 100K more than the premium it never gained 1 additional hp from 2015-2022. it has a ton of carbon some nice aero and suspension but only 35 more hp than the current base GTR. im telling you we are looking at 430-440hp out of the NISMO if its a sub 70K car. Tamura is running the NISMO show and it just isnt about big showy numbers instead its subtle meaningful enhancements.

or a more apples to apples look at the difference between say the NISMO 350 and the touring or the NISMO 370 and the touring model. look what you got and look how much more it cost . I cant imagine a depature from this strategy
 

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Now that specific details regarding the new Z have been released and the automotive talking heads have been able to drive the Z and even compare it to other cars, I'm somewhat disappointed with the 2023 Z. I'm interested to hear what others think about the 2023 Z based on what we know so far.

Some background. I've owned several Zs over the years including most recently a 2003 350Z, which I purchased new and I still own, and a 370Z which I don't still own. I've also owned other sports cars since the mid 2000s including a C6 Corvette, a BMW and currently a Camaro SS 1LE, all but one of which had manual transmissions. My 350Z is probably my favorite car I've ever owned. It never ceases to bring a smile to my face when I drive it. It also probably has $20k worth of mods over the time I've owned it.

While I love the exterior styling of the 2023 Z as well as the twin turbo V6, I'm somewhat disappointed that the car isn't all new, but instead a significantly revised 370Z. I know that Nissan was trying to cut costs in order to keep the car's price from being too high. After all it had to be competitive in the market. However, the pricing is also a disappointment to me. Not the price of the base Z. It's pricing is pretty good, except it lacks many of the features sports car owners want. The Performance being $10k more than the base Z and over $50k total is what disappoints me the most. I was hoping the Performance would be closer to $45k, especially since much of the car, like the chassis, the brakes, most of the suspension and the manual transmission, is essentially carry over. It's not quite the bargain sports car it used to be. And the performance doesn't really match its current competition either. The 3.0 (Z)Supra is clearly better in every performance category, although I'm not a fan of its styling. BMW engines are notoriously underrated so I suspect it is actually more powerful than the Z. And the Supra is finally going to be available with a manual for the 2023 model year.

My other current car, a 2022 Camaro SS 1LE 6M is also a significantly better performing car than the 2023 Z and it cost right at $46k. In my opinion its the best performance value on the market right now. Of course GM has an economy of scale advantage over Nissan when it comes to building performance cars, so it can build them cheaper. And before you knock the 1LE as an American muscle car, if you don't know, you should research what it is. It's basically a car you can take from the showroom floor straight to your local racetrack (not dragstrip) without any modifications. It's that good.

I don't want to come across that I'm not a Z fan. I'm a huge Z fan. Just disappointed in what the new Z is. This time last year I was all set to order the 2023 Z when it came out. But due to delays in the release of the car I decided to pursue another car that I had been looking at off and on since 2019, the 1LE. In hindsight I'm glad I did. As the more I found out about the new Z the more disappointed I became. Now, I'm thinking about waiting for the Nismo Z. But at the same time I'm wondering how much it will cost. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have the new Z, but I'm not willing to pay in excess of $50k for it or the inevitable dealer mark ups to get one of the first year models.
In Canada, dealers cannot sell the car for more than the suggested retail price.

In Canada a dealer can buy the car and resell it. The warranty begins when the dealer takes possession of the car in his name. Afterwards can resell the car which is no longer considered a new car.

Pre-orders in Canada were the last week of January at dealerships. And the first week of February at dealerships, and online on the Nissan Canada web site .
 

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I think I found the difference between my view point and most people in this thread. Camaro and Mustang are not competition to this vehicle. Competition on the streets as a fast car, yes. Competition in regards to spending 45k+, no. I don’t want a Camaro that every army recruit with a 590 credit score has. I don’t want the Supra that looks like a 1990s hot wheels car. It’s not in the same discussion as far as performance matched with visual appeal and vintage history. My dad had a 280. I couldn’t consider anything else at this price point, honestly. I’m sorry to hear everyone is already mad about this car. Buy it first. Lose your money. Keep it until you die. It doesn’t really matter when you have one. lol but stop whining about ridiculous and impractical sports cars being over priced by a few thousand dollars. Looks like most of us car save up that extra 5 grand because we’re not getting into these things until fall.
Sorry for my novela but I gotta explain where I'm coming from.
I'm late to this party. As with the price reveal. I almost lost all interest but wasn't quite ready to give up yet. I do own that 2017 camaro 2SS w/1LE suspension cammed and breather mods while still looking like a 2SS, that you seem to resent as a comparison. I think it's a fair comparison when we are speaking of a purchase. Understand. I gave up my 370z because I got all the driving enjoyment I could get out of it. Money grubbing Nissan could have made the new Z when they were supposed to but they didn't to ride on the altima and rogue gravy train. They got caught up framing people over money and there was no sign of a new Z so I bought a camaro.
Immediately I was impressed with the handling from the MRC and proper braking system. The torque and power was everywhere in the Rev range. And it was literally track capable at purchase. A total of 9 coolers and attachable track diffusers were in the trunk of the car. I paid $44,000 after rebate minus tax. So it was like 47kish.
I was still looking forward to the Z. The BMW Zupr4 was not my cup of tea. Tired of waiting for the Z again. I bought a 2019 alfa Romeo giulia ti sport used for 33k. That car had too many electrical problems so I sold it during this carpocalyse. All the mentioned vehicles I was willing to trade into if the performance was their with the Z. My Z34 was so much fun I really wanted to love a new Z. But here are my issues.
  • A 20 yr old chassis, can't be worth 52k
  • A digital screen from a 2014 Audi can't be worth 52k
  • The same interior contours since the 350z, can't be worth 52k
  • The untuned/unengineered vr30ddtt for 8yrs can't be worth 52k.
-The turbo is worth an extra $4000 and the new transmission an extra $1000. The screens and 9 speed an extra $1000. So at best the base car should've been $36,000. And considering it's 36,900 in Canada & how outdated the performance components are... They're worth another $4000. And I'm just going by the competition. When you are PURCHASING a car, its different from tracking or racing. In that category, yes, the Zupr4, is the only true competitor. But in dollars, theres varying options, that fit the enjoyment level and components comparisons...
The suspension on the Z is floaty and track useless. That wasn't a problem in the 370z sport. It needed track assistance. But not due to floatiness in the suspension. It was mostly tires and rigidity. (Sway bars)
Camaro chassis, is 8yrs old
Supra, 5 yrs old
Mustang 9yrs old
Corvette 3yrs old
BMW 2 series. 8 yrs old
Nissan Z. 21 years old.
The tires on the Z. Subpar to the competition. The rigidity. Dated.
The suspension, crude compared to the competition.
The alfa was by far the best car I ever drove and doesn't correlate as a sports car. But deserves a mention as a price comparison if they could sort out the electronics issues on random models.
At the end of the day $50k a sports car is a big purchase! If we weren't in a recession? Maybe they could've jerked the masses and these comparisons may not be important.. But at 52k plus markup... the Z is a laughable entry at best. It has 2 seats but still managed NOT to be a true sports car. Its a GT. It's not even good enough to get mad over. You just gotta laugh at Nissan attempt to push a 56/44 weight distribution sports car for 52k. You can buy a Golf R with that weight distribution. Get a corolla gr with mods. It makes no sense. It's an elantra competitor with that weight distribution.
Hold on to your 370's fellas! That was a car. I might search me a nismo!? This Z just ain't it. It hurts to say it cuz this was a dream car for me. This was that underdog that just had it. The Z is dead my friends. The Z is in a coma w/life support. I guess they want you to really love that EV when it drops? It's the only explanation I have for this Fiasco of a car.
 

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I hear ya. The same dummy who gave the green light to the MKV’s “questionable” exterior design was probably the same guy who devised the Z’s tiered pricing. $41K for an under-equipped base car nobody wants and $52K that’s too much for what it is AND both tiers have $hitty tires too. If there were a Sport + LSD, bigger brakes and Michelins for $46K you might change your tune a bit. That car would have better handling, braking and acceleration (5-10 percent quicker) and represents what most people want. As for higher expectations than what my mid-tier model would provide, only the aftermarket can handle that. Toyota doesn’t make a Supra, but the MKV is great if you want a BMW Z4 with “different” bodywork (trying to be polite) at a deep discount, but the MKV is a non-starter if you wanted a MKV Supra designed and made by Toyota. If you want a two-seat, six cyl Japanese sports car, the Z is literally the only one made in Japan. The Nismo won’t be anything more than you’ve said, though I think the price will be closer to $60K than $65K. Regardless, neither car would be as well sorted as your Camaro. Unfortunately, Nissan literally can’t financially justify a new platform, and who could blame them with little chance of ever selling more than an average of 10K Z cars per year - likely less with just the two tiers as-is? If one’s looking for a track car, your Camaro is it. If you want a Z for its looks, the nostalgia and because it’s made in Japan, you get the Z - you’ll just have to be patient for that mid-tier option, though I fear the Michelins won’t happen because Nissan seems to have an illogical hard-on for Bridgestones.
 

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Sorry for my novela but I gotta explain where I'm coming from.
I'm late to this party. As with the price reveal. I almost lost all interest but wasn't quite ready to give up yet. I do own that 2017 camaro 2SS w/1LE suspension cammed and breather mods while still looking like a 2SS, that you seem to resent as a comparison. I think it's a fair comparison when we are speaking of a purchase. Understand. I gave up my 370z because I got all the driving enjoyment I could get out of it. Money grubbing Nissan could have made the new Z when they were supposed to but they didn't to ride on the altima and rogue gravy train. They got caught up framing people over money and there was no sign of a new Z so I bought a camaro.
Immediately I was impressed with the handling from the MRC and proper braking system. The torque and power was everywhere in the Rev range. And it was literally track capable at purchase. A total of 9 coolers and attachable track diffusers were in the trunk of the car. I paid $44,000 after rebate minus tax. So it was like 47kish.
I was still looking forward to the Z. The BMW Zupr4 was not my cup of tea. Tired of waiting for the Z again. I bought a 2019 alfa Romeo giulia ti sport used for 33k. That car had too many electrical problems so I sold it during this carpocalyse. All the mentioned vehicles I was willing to trade into if the performance was their with the Z. My Z34 was so much fun I really wanted to love a new Z. But here are my issues.
  • A 20 yr old chassis, can't be worth 52k
  • A digital screen from a 2014 Audi can't be worth 52k
  • The same interior contours since the 350z, can't be worth 52k
  • The untuned/unengineered vr30ddtt for 8yrs can't be worth 52k.
-The turbo is worth an extra $4000 and the new transmission an extra $1000. The screens and 9 speed an extra $1000. So at best the base car should've been $36,000. And considering it's 36,900 in Canada & how outdated the performance components are... They're worth another $4000. And I'm just going by the competition. When you are PURCHASING a car, its different from tracking or racing. In that category, yes, the Zupr4, is the only true competitor. But in dollars, theres varying options, that fit the enjoyment level and components comparisons...
The suspension on the Z is floaty and track useless. That wasn't a problem in the 370z sport. It needed track assistance. But not due to floatiness in the suspension. It was mostly tires and rigidity. (Sway bars)
Camaro chassis, is 8yrs old
Supra, 5 yrs old
Mustang 9yrs old
Corvette 3yrs old
BMW 2 series. 8 yrs old
Nissan Z. 21 years old.
The tires on the Z. Subpar to the competition. The rigidity. Dated.
The suspension, crude compared to the competition.
The alfa was by far the best car I ever drove and doesn't correlate as a sports car. But deserves a mention as a price comparison if they could sort out the electronics issues on random models.
At the end of the day $50k a sports car is a big purchase! If we weren't in a recession? Maybe they could've jerked the masses and these comparisons may not be important.. But at 52k plus markup... the Z is a laughable entry at best. It has 2 seats but still managed NOT to be a true sports car. Its a GT. It's not even good enough to get mad over. You just gotta laugh at Nissan attempt to push a 56/44 weight distribution sports car for 52k. You can buy a Golf R with that weight distribution. Get a corolla gr with mods. It makes no sense. It's an elantra competitor with that weight distribution.
Hold on to your 370's fellas! That was a car. I might search me a nismo!? This Z just ain't it. It hurts to say it cuz this was a dream car for me. This was that underdog that just had it. The Z is dead my friends. The Z is in a coma w/life support. I guess they want you to really love that EV when it drops? It's the only explanation I have for this Fiasco of a car.
I think there's a chance that there will be some good deals on the second hand market for people that are patient. The GR Corolla is going to be another price nightmare with brutal markups like the Z.
 
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