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I do wonder if they are going to come out with a better heat exchanger or if its going to be the crappy one they gave us on the Q.
Judging by what's on the proto Z, the HX's look the same as the Q's.

We'll have to see if the production Z utilizes better HX's, but those planning on tracking the car need to consider they may need to spend some serious coin on upgraded pump, HX, resevoir, etc. From what I've heard, the Q's heat soak pretty quickly.
 

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From what I've heard, the Q's heat soak pretty quickly.
It's true, the oem HX is pretty small and heat soaks very quickly. Was one of my first mods.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·

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Judging by what's on the proto Z, the HX's look the same as the Q's.

We'll have to see if the production Z utilizes better HX's, but those planning on tracking the car need to consider they may need to spend some serious coin on upgraded pump, HX, resevoir, etc. From what I've heard, the Q's heat soak pretty quickly.
That is going to be the trick to find out the differences between Z Proto and Z Prod-o. (as in production)...

I imagine the prototype was focused on design implementation, and likely used as much off-the-shelf underpinnings as possible that aren't all that apparent to most, or aftermarket fancy-bits for pieces that are visible...
(2-piece brake discs and 6-piston calipers... look very impressive for a car that probably won't exceed parade speed very often... and probably too expensive for production... but one can hope)

It probably uses a Q60 power-plant as directly as possible, right off the sub-assembly line, or from the R&D shop.

The R&D for production Z mechanicals is probably still underway, from fine-tuning and proving ground testing, to tooling the factory and suppliers with final part specifications.

The prototype needed to be shown for marketing before that R&D is fully completed, so the production may remain to be seen what is a direct cross-over from existing Z34 and Q60 parts and toolings, to changes required for fitment, and changes desired for performance targets and warranty cost minimization.

I am sure the bean counters are still counting to determine how it balances out between using amortized toolings and parts production that is already in place, vs. meeting sales and marketing targets, and meeting engineering requirements, and keeping warranty costs, potential recalls, and other after-sale expenditures down, vs. saving money on the front end for product profitability at the time of sale.
 

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Anyone else wondering if they're going to take the same steps they did with the q50/60? Go with a 300hp 3.0T for lower-end and a 400hp like that of a red sport?

I've got a hunch this may happen.
 

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Anyone else wondering if they're going to take the same steps they did with the q50/60? Go with a 300hp 3.0T for lower-end and a 400hp like that of a red sport?

I've got a hunch this may happen.
I think it's unlikely that they will offer any Z with less power than the previous generation. In fact, the wording during the reveal of the Proto suggested that Z35 would be "more powerful," as I recall.
 

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Anyone else wondering if they're going to take the same steps they did with the q50/60? Go with a 300hp 3.0T for lower-end and a 400hp like that of a red sport?

I've got a hunch this may happen.
The "insider" rumor so far specifically stated that all new Z's, aside from a Nismo, will be the same power level of at least 400hp.
 

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300 entry level, 400 upgrade was kind of a fan speculation thing a while back... Articles have referenced the 400hp level applying to all non-Nismo trims.

Some speculation from media and general peanut gallery have suggested north of 400, to perhaps even 500 horsepower for NISMO... but again, may be pure speculation.

Looking at it from an open-market comparison viewpoint...

Z will be entering the market in the midst of:
Mustang EcoBoost HPP @ 330hp/350tq for $35K to start.
Mustang GT V8 base @ 460hp/420tq for $36K.
Camaro and Challenger are likely pretty similar to Mustang's pricepoints and power outputs,
Challenger R/T and ScatPack offer 375hp Hemi V8 for 35-40K, with 410tq for Scat Pack.
Challenger GT V6 offering 303hp for ~$30K
BMW M240 I6 Turbo @ 330hp for $46K, (230 is 250hp @ $36K turbo i4)
Supra 2.0T i4 Turbo @ 295hp/255tq for $43K
Supra 3.0T i6 Turbo @ 382hp/368tq for $55K

Nissan Z 3.0T @ 400hp/350tq (using Q60 Red Sport existing specs) @ $35K...
(Q60 pure 300hp/295tq for $43K, Red Sport @ $60K with both uprated power and luxury options)

The Z doesn't beat the base Mustang GT on power, and probably not the Challenger on Torque.
It isn't intended to. It also undercuts both by 500-1000lbs of curb weight.

Other than the V8 Muscle cars, it offers more power per dollar than every other car on that list.

On a purely subjective style level... it is also better looking than all but some of the Challenger and Mustang trims. Certainly better looking than Camaro and Supra, and more interesting than BMW 2-series.

If Nissan does this right... it may set a value-per-dollar benchmark in the under-50K mainstream performance car segment, and that creates more demand than the cost-savings of a 300hp/295tq base model that is not really any less complex to implement. Pure and Luxe Q60s are offered to people wanting a personal GT coupe that isn't necessarily as focused on performance as someone shopping for a more performance-oriented car in general, or a true 2-seat sports car specifically, which only the Nissan Z and Supra are on that list.

----------------------------------------------------
Before I get flamed about "sports cars", as I have in the past...

I go by the old rules... sports cars don't have excess wheelbase for 2nd-row seat practicality*.
'Performance cars' is a classification for a wide variety of body styles. Sport Coupes are 2-door fixed-roof performance cars sub-group of that, as are sport sedans, and others.

'Sports cars' are even more specifically classified group of ideal-chassis cars with appropriate levels of power to suit and utilize the purpose of having ideal handling and on-road performance. They have 2 seats because the ideal dimensions have the available width due to track width to wheelbase ratio, but excess length would add un-necessary chassis and bodywork mass to the car's size. It also does not specify fixed, removeable, convertible, or absent roof configurations.

Mustang, Challenger, Camaro, 2-series, and Q60, even GT-R, M4, and others are performance cars, sub-grouped as Sport Coupes, and specifically Muscle cars, 2-door sedans, or GT coupes... but not sports cars like 2-seat Supra, Z4, 718, Corvette, and Nissan Z.

(* - 911s have rear seat/shelf space because the wheelbase can't get any shorter without hurting it's handling aspects, not helping. Arguably Lotus Evora is the same way... too short is almost as bad as too long, in terms of handling. If the wheelbase shouldn't get any shorter, just like the track width not getting any narrower, seats within that floorplan don't disqualify the sports-car classification, as long as the chassis dynamics are the first priority.)
 

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I personally wouldn't shop a Z against all of those other cars, unless they are also 2-seaters. The Z is pretty much worthless as a practical conveyance with just 2 seats and a very small hatch area. Really, it's a car that has a very specific set of traits that will appeal to a small audience. Lot's of people are definitely going to take notice of the new Z, but with just 2 seats, I dunno.... maybe it'll be able to sell as many as Miata does? Once the average person gets over their initial desire to want a new Z, they'll just end up buying some milquetoast CUV instead.

Personally I also don't go by any performance metrics, car A vs. car B as I have already made up my mind which sporty car(s) appeal to me. If we just care about metrics, you might be best off with a Tesla.

It's the Q60 that should be considered, and it's way too expensive for what it is.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
The Z will come with plenty of 'straight line' performance with the projected 400hp, or more. Too much metric comparisons really don't mean much, it's how the total package will be a hit or miss to enthusiasts, especially Nissan/Datsun faithfuls that's been waiting a while for a new Z. It won't be the best daily driver, yes many compromises, interior space, noise, etc. I'm hoping the performance output will not overwhelm the chassis and handling will be solid and somewhat adjustable to handle even more horsepower, i.e. upgrades.

Right now I can only think of a few reasonable sports cars that deliver on handling with the engines given - Cayman S, FRS/BRZ, Miata - and are fun to push to 9-10/10ths. The Z will not appeal to most buyers especially the manual variants IMO. But if the package delivers there is a lasting effect for the aftermarket, tuners, competitions (autox, track, time attack, etc.) and die-hard sports cars buyers. This will be a success, even if Nissan only sells a few thousand units per year. The Z will live on to future hybrid, EV technology.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
These two are my alternate options in case the new Z does not deliver, but hoping it will slot somewhere in between or above when it comes to driving 'feel', giving drivers grins be it on track or road. We don't want dull performance. The new Z shouldn't be a handful with oversteer issues nor plowing understeer. And please don't do what BMW did with the auto-rev match, that is making you turn off ALL nannies before turning it off. Rev match cancel should be avail at any time.

 

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Unfortunately the 370 was rarely praised for its handling, especially at the limit (see Chris Harris's takedown in comparison to the 86 and Cayman). So Nissan has a lot of progress to make to get to the high ground here, and as the 400 is not a ground-up redo but really a major revision of the existing model, it may be too far a reach. One thing in its favour though are those front double wishbones, an advantage shared only by the Miata and the new 911 GT3.

My cross shopping list is a bit more modest than S30's: the upcoming GR86 and new Golf 8R. The latter is a rocket, with a 4.0 0-60, and a new torque splitting rear diff which allows for some oversteer and even a drift mode.
 

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I am hoping that 'the bones' of the chassis are still well enough designed that with some tuning to the suspension it can make good strides forward. As you mentioned, double control arm front suspension, as well as multi-link rear independent suspension, and a good baseline of track width to wheelbase length, and some amount of mass centralization.

GR86 has McPherson struts to clear the engine while still being able to steer the front wheels (width is the big downside of a boxer... and why mid or rear engine location works well for a low, flat, but wide engine geometry, but otherwise a perfectly balanced and low-CG engine format)

Golf, no matter how hot they make it, is still a front-engined, transverse, unequal-length platform with rear drive added to it... it is a hot hatch, not a sports car. If technical wizardry in the R&D stage can make a GOLF fast... then how much more effective should R&D efforts be on a more ideal performance road car chassis with proper weight transfer.

It may not eclipse the likes of Cayman GTS 4.0 or GT4... or even Corvette C8. It isn't a mid-engine car. It is 1/3rd the price of the 6-cylinder 718 models, and barely more than half the price of a base Corvette.

But that doesn't mean it should have any trouble being a better utilized and optimized chassis and powertrain combination than GR86/BRZ, or Mustang EcoBoost... and a purer driver's car than a V8 Muscle Car.

I get the impression that in previous times, there was not a tremendous amount of push and motivation behind the changes from 350Z to 370Z, after 7 years of 350, and then continuing on for another 11 years until 2020. Especially with how little the 370Z changed over those 11 years.

It seems like Nissan may have seen the brink, and are trying to change direction to avoid seeing it again, and Z35 is their flag waving effort to show people that... so it seems like they have motivation to capitalize on the hype and momentum of this new Z to really make it their best effort, rather than their least effort.
 

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....
It seems like Nissan may have seen the brink, and are trying to change direction to avoid seeing it again, and Z35 is their flag waving effort to show people that... so it seems like they have motivation to capitalize on the hype and momentum of this new Z to really make it their best effort, rather than their least effort.
I really hope you are right, but given Ghosn's track record at the helm of Nissan while the 400 was being developed I am a bit sceptical. Did Nissan have the time or will to fix things or take a new direction after his ouster?

On the 8R - I'd bet the farm that VW had a far greater R&D budget to work with on the 8th gen R than Nissan had on the Z. No the R is not a sports car but that fancy AWD and its under-rated power will give it a lower 0-60 than the Z. UK and German reviews have lauded Its handling. Its Nords lap time is only a few seconds slower than the mighty CTR, which ran with a full roll cage providing greater chassis rigidity and no rear seats. It will be interesting to see if the new Z can match it.
 

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If you are looking for lower 0-60 times, you'd be well served to buy a Tesla.

I had a Mk7 GTI, phenomenal car, and I was strongly considering upgrading to a Mk7 GolfR, primarily for the AWD. The problem was that in the 3 years I owned the car, it was in the shop ten times and the last time it needed a new DSG at 20K miles. Again, loved driving that car, but it soured me on the Golf lineup. Supposedly the Mk8 GTI and GolfR will now be made in Germany, there was some sentiment that the GTI was less reliable than the GolfR because the GTI was made in Mexico whereas the GolfR is made in Germany, difficult to prove.
I have now owned my Q60 AWD for the same amount of time as my GTI, and the Q60 has never needed a warranty/repair visit at all. Although the GTI is more fun, my Q60 has been a better overall ownership experience than a VW, and I personally wouldn't consider the GolfR anymore just due to that real life experience. Also, in WA State, GolfR's often get ADM/markup above MSRP. Not worth it to me.

Honestly, IMO, if an affordable track bunny is your goal, I'd wager the new 86 is probably the way to go. Going to be down on straight line power, but probably makes up for it in overall experience.
Again, caring too much about 0-60 will definitely leave you disappointed. If the new Z is on par with the BMW Zupra, it will be so easy for BMW to "turn up" the next year's Zupra with even more power (and possibly a 6MT) to put the Zupra ahead of the Z. The BMW has tremendous bandwidth for additional OEM supremacy over the Z. As has been said, the Z35 is a legacy chassis, and likely doesn't have what it takes to dominate over the BMW and several other cars. But, keep in mind the Zupra's price point, and that the Z35 with still be near the top overall....I would be shocked if it ever was the best at every metric.

I'm getting a new Z because I have always liked them, warts and all. I am pretty sure the Z cars have rarely, if ever, owned the tracks. Even the Z32, my favorite Z of all time, was not excellent on a track. Just "very good".
 

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VW reliability has definitely been a big negative in the past, but the current R, as judged by the Vortex forum feedback, has been quite reliable. That DI-only engine can get valve build-up requiring an expensive cleaning.

Teslas may offer stunning acceleration but they are a very, very long way from being an enthusiast's choice.

If (and it's a big if) Nissan can deliver a new Z with a more communicative connection between road, wheel, and driver, as well as engineer in more agile handling, all at a reasonable price point, they should have a winner on their hands. The proto clearly demonstrates they have successfully modernized the interior and styling, and that Infiniti twin turbo 6 is a great choice for the car.
 

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...If the new Z is on par with the BMW Zupra, it will be so easy for BMW to "turn up" the next year's Zupra with even more power (and possibly a 6MT) to put the Zupra ahead of the Z. The BMW has tremendous bandwidth for additional OEM supremacy over the Z. As has been said, the Z35 is a legacy chassis, and likely doesn't have what it takes to dominate over the BMW and several other cars. But, keep in mind the Zupra's price point, and that the Z35 with still be near the top overall....I would be shocked if it ever was the best at every metric.


I'm getting a new Z because I have always liked them, warts and all. I am pretty sure the Z cars have rarely, if ever, owned the tracks. Even the Z32, my favorite Z of all time, was not excellent on a track. Just "very good".
I am not convinced of BMW's supremacy, despite them being a company that has more motorsports presence than Nissan might.

BMW's road cars are inexplicably dense and massive for their dimensions. They are known for plastic parts in mission critical systems that can fail, especially the cooling system. They are known for motorsport division engines that cannot keep the top end or the bottom end of the engine from grenading. You would think that a V10 M5 or M6 for 6 figures would be built to last... but you'd be wrong, and expensively so.

Z35 may be a legacy chassis, but we have yet to see what improvements have been made, including AFTER Ghosn's departure, on a chassis that isn't feather light, but isn't overly massive either... and is not inherently drastically compromised, just likely has needed further development, and is also designed to a price point to a certain extent.

Porsche 911 through 993 was a Legacy chassis for more than 30 years, and developed significantly during that time, and that is with the engine cantilevered off the rear axle, and suspended with struts. Tuning and iterative development can do significant things, especially if the fundamentals are already in place.

Plus, as I have said before... a brand new street legal sports car is a different thing than a race car, and trying to make the former into the latter is not going to get ideal results, nor should an OEM really try to make a race car if the target is actually supposed to be a very good road-oriented 2-seat sports car that is comfortable enough to also do a bit of touring or commuting in.

People say they want sports cars to be like race cars, but race cars make for a somewhat miserable road car experience, and road oriented sports cars are not intended to be focused on lap times around a smooth, controlled track. Just because the venn diagrams intersect a little bit on criteria for both, does not mean that they are one in the same thing, or even all that good at crossing over.

Ford built the Mustang with a live axle for a lot longer than necessary, to cater to the people taking it to the drag strip... of which that was probably less than 10% of cars sold... and probably 50% of that 10% would have swapped in a ford 9" axle anyway... so the other 90% of purchasers got a car that handled and behaved WORSE in almost every metric on public roads and inclement weather, and on NVH... Catering to the racers was the wrong move, and the racers do what they are going to do anyway.

If Nissan chases Nurburgring lap times, or other esoteric race car metrics, and misses the point of a road-going passenger car that fits the sub-category of Performance Car, and sub-class of that being Sports Car... they'll miss the opportunity for the Z35 to do as well as it should.

Z32 did not pretend to be a race car, and was a better and more popular road car for it. People slag the S130 280ZX for being heavier and less nimble than the S30 Zs that came before... but at the time that it was new, the 280ZX, and then the Turbo... were more popular for being a bit more accomodating, a bit more refined, with a few more amenities.

Racers and Track day enthusiasts make up a VERY small part of the audience... and are entirely likely to modify any car that they use for that purpose anyway... and truly serious people about it don't use street legal chassis anyway.

Judging a production street car on race car criteria can quickly get into dangerous territory of the wrong goal of perfection in a different role can be the enemy of being actually good in the role that is the true direction.
 

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Again, caring too much about 0-60 will definitely leave you disappointed. If the new Z is on par with the BMW Zupra, it will be so easy for BMW to "turn up" the next year's Zupra with even more power (and possibly a 6MT) to put the Zupra ahead of the Z.
Also, if the new Z is on par with the BMW Supra (as it currently exists), it will already be as quick or quicker to 60 than the Golf R, assuming that the 4.0 second sprint is the best time anyone has been able to routinely get for the VW: the Supra runs anywhere from 3.7-4.1 seconds, depending upon who is testing it and their methodology.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
I am not convinced of BMW's supremacy, despite them being a company that has more motorsports presence than Nissan might.

BMW's road cars are inexplicably dense and massive for their dimensions. They are known for plastic parts in mission critical systems that can fail, especially the cooling system. They are known for motorsport division engines that cannot keep the top end or the bottom end of the engine from grenading. You would think that a V10 M5 or M6 for 6 figures would be built to last... but you'd be wrong, and expensively so.
........
Plus, as I have said before... a brand new street legal sports car is a different thing than a race car, and trying to make the former into the latter is not going to get ideal results, nor should an OEM really try to make a race car if the target is actually supposed to be a very good road-oriented 2-seat sports car that is comfortable enough to also do a bit of touring or commuting in.

People say they want sports cars to be like race cars, but race cars make for a somewhat miserable road car experience, and road oriented sports cars are not intended to be focused on lap times around a smooth, controlled track. Just because the venn diagrams intersect a little bit on criteria for both, does not mean that they are one in the same thing, or even all that good at crossing over.
.......
Racers and Track day enthusiasts make up a VERY small part of the audience... and are entirely likely to modify any car that they use for that purpose anyway... and truly serious people about it don't use street legal chassis anyway.
It is true about BMWs being fragile, such was my daily/track E46 M3 for the years I owned it, Vanos and subframe issues will crop up, but when all fixed they are supreme handlers and that 8000 rpm redline is so addicting. I still own an N54 TT E60 M-Sport as a daily, built like a tank, gobs of torque, great brakes! Love straight sixes. The new Z will be my third twin turbo six.

About your other comments, you keep mentioning opposite sides of the spectrum. I take my street cars, although mildly modified, to track days, these are not race conditions with dicing traffic, etc. and you don't have to gut your cars. Yes we pass and get passed but these events push our street cars to much higher limits, the way sports cars should be driven legally IMO, away from any street racing. We have different classes from beginners on up, passing rules etc. They are safe and nothing compared to out and out race setups. At the end of the day, turn on the A/C and drive home. You should try one someday.

What I'm hoping is, the new Z will be in the same company, dynamics wise, as proven cars like the S2000, M3/M2, Cayman, Miata, etc. that are very good right off the bat and easily modified if desired. High temp brake pads and fluids are all you need to start with. I don't really care about numbers like 0-60, 1/4 mi, these are just stats and doubt most Z owners do drag strips.
 
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