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I am not convinced of BMW's supremacy, despite them being a company that has more motorsports presence than Nissan might.

BMW's road cars are inexplicably dense and massive for their dimensions. They are known for plastic parts in mission critical systems that can fail, especially the cooling system. They are known for motorsport division engines that cannot keep the top end or the bottom end of the engine from grenading. You would think that a V10 M5 or M6 for 6 figures would be built to last... but you'd be wrong, and expensively so.

Z35 may be a legacy chassis, but we have yet to see what improvements have been made, including AFTER Ghosn's departure, on a chassis that isn't feather light, but isn't overly massive either... and is not inherently drastically compromised, just likely has needed further development, and is also designed to a price point to a certain extent.
I am thoroughly convinced, and confident in the performance of certain BMWs. Of course they are unreliable after warranty, expensive to own, overly complicated and finicky when aged. They are not a Camry. But, in the performance metrics, BMWs are capable of putting down seriously impressive stats. Personally, unless there is a sea change at BMW, I'll never own one, and I never want for one. However, I do respect what a new BMW can do.
Their inline 6 is hugely capable, their chassis always seems to be right on top. BMW has so much bandwidth in their product to just turn up the wick a little bit if anyone chomps on their heels.

On the other end of that spectrum, if you look at a company like Toyota/Lexus, they have locked ECUs and relatively weak performance stats, especially on their turbo cars. With a GTI or BMW, you can drop a $500 JB4 piggyback onto the engine and get at least 75 whp. With Toyota/Lexus turbo cars, you can spend thousands and only get 30 whp.

Fortunately, this new VR30 is more like a German engine than a Japanese engine, at least in potential. The VR30 responds to mods as well as the German engines, several hundred dollars into a VR30 adds very significant WHP, just like a German car. Also, just like a German car, VR30 cars seem to put down more WHP than their crank HP numbers would suggest. I have seen many VR30 stock dynos at 5-10whp of their crank ratings. Very impressive.

However, what Nissan doesn't have is super-fast performing transmission and elaborate suspensions that help to get the power down. BMWs are so fast because of their transmission, engine, and suspension is able to keep that power glued to the road. The new Z will be getting the 9AT, which I don't think has any performance creds, yet. I can see the Z putting down impressive WHP numbers, only to lose in a metrics comparison due to 9AT performance and/or traction issues. We'll see.
I currently own an AWD Q60, but I have seen the modded RWD Q60's have traction issues in 2nd gear even. But a faster BMW doesn't. After seeing under the proto Z, I have doubts that the legacy bits would allow the Z to conquer BMWs, Mustangs, Camaros, etc. None of that matters to me as I wouldn't own any of those cars (nor a Miata or 86) because I still think the Z will be an amazing car. I will be shocked if it can have a competitive edge over it's peers using a chassis that is essentially nearly 20 years old. The BMW chassis was all-new and benefits from continuous improvements.
 

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At least on the front end, the Z sports aluminum double wishbones, which is still a state-of-the-art layout. So the right bones are there as a basis for improving the handling and feel of the car, but of course a number of other factors come into play to that end and will need work.
 

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I'll take proper fundamentals that can be mechanically optimized, over traction control, and digital powertrain and chassis trickery over a mechanical base that is not as ideal, or that is compromised from the drawing board.

Even if Nissan isn't Lotus and doesn't pull off a perfect chassis tuning regimen... there are other experts that can optimize the control arm geometries and other tuning options in the aftermarket to get the sort of chassis gains that takemorepills mentions on the engine side.

Tuning and optimization, whether powertrain, chassis, or anything else... is more readily doable if the basics are done well and generally correctly in the first place, instead of overcoming obstacles that are inherent engineering compromises.
 

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I agree, the new Z35 is a relatively "basic" car in 2022.
Heck, it's unheard of to have a manual e-brake! I think even the CTR, GTI and GolfR now have EPB.
I suspect, we'll even get lucky with the ECM on the Z35. I haven't heard any rumors of the Nissan ECM's getting "locked down" like other manufacturers. Hopefully the Z35 continues on with a modifiable ECM.

I do look at the simplicity of the Z35 as a benefit for long-term ownership. I plan to own one for a long time. I just HOPE that these new cars don't have the same issue that plagued previous Japanese cars: sticky dash.
I can deal with the crappy CSC, stock brakes that may overheat, cooling system that could use upgrading. Those are all areas that can be upgraded and maintained reasonably well.
 

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I'll take proper fundamentals that can be mechanically optimized, over traction control, and digital powertrain and chassis trickery over a mechanical base that is not as ideal, or that is compromised from the drawing board.
And even when all that complicated engineering and technology works, as it seems to in the new Golf R Mk 8 according to all the reviews I have seen out of the UK and Europe, it brings with it reliability concerns - and reliability is something that VW is not well known for.

Advanced tech like PASM, e-diffs, etc. can make a car so flawless that it sucks the challenge and engagement out of driving - see the excellent review of the Cayman GTS out today on The Drive for a case in point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
Advanced tech like PASM, e-diffs, etc. can make a car so flawless that it sucks the challenge and engagement out of driving - see the excellent review of the Cayman GTS out today on The Drive for a case in point.
Those Caymans can really be pushed. I'm betting the new Z will not come close to that sublime handling, mid-engine does have lots going for it, plus the nannies. This is fine and dandy, I expect it, we all want to be more involved in driving the car with lower limits, that's the fun of it. The R35 GT-R suffered the same way, too much electronics, torque vectoring, etc. Heck my 240Z is a handful many times at the track with that added power, oversteer, twitchy, but whoa does it make a better driver out of it. Just leave the new Z's auto rev-match button there so can be switched off whenever.
 

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^ This brings to mind a glaring limitation of those very high performance, relatively driver-proof cars: if you aren't tracking them or driving the autobahn, where can you exercise their abilities to get that desired engagement without putting yourself and/or others at significant risk? We've all seen those supercar crash vids...
 

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I agree, the new Z35 is a relatively "basic" car in 2022.
Heck, it's unheard of to have a manual e-brake! I think even the CTR, GTI and GolfR now have EPB.
I suspect, we'll even get lucky with the ECM on the Z35. I haven't heard any rumors of the Nissan ECM's getting "locked down" like other manufacturers. Hopefully the Z35 continues on with a modifiable ECM.

I do look at the simplicity of the Z35 as a benefit for long-term ownership. I plan to own one for a long time. I just HOPE that these new cars don't have the same issue that plagued previous Japanese cars: sticky dash.
I can deal with the crappy CSC, stock brakes that may overheat, cooling system that could use upgrading. Those are all areas that can be upgraded and maintained reasonably well.
Just so we're clear, a manual e-brake is one of the primary reasons I want this car :ROFLMAO:
 

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I've been looking at the rubber that's on the car. All the close-up photos are the same Dunlop SP SPortmaxx GT600. Curious as to whether the production models will be getting the same exact tires or will they roll out with something more cost-effective?

Maybe a set of Yokohama or Bridgestone? Maybe the Nismo version will be the only one to get the GT600 like the 2020 Nismo 370Z?

On a side-note, the tires that are on the proto is also the same ones that are on the 2021 Nismo GTR.
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
I've been looking at the rubber that's on the car. All the close-up photos are the same Dunlop SP SPortmaxx GT600. Curious as to whether the production models will be getting the same exact tires or will they roll out with something more cost-effective?

Maybe a set of Yokohama or Bridgestone? Maybe the Nismo version will be the only one to get the GT600 like the 2020 Nismo 370Z?

On a side-note, the tires that are on the proto is also the same ones that are on the 2021 Nismo GTR.
With 400 hp, Nissan had better not cheap out on tire choices, should be proper Dunlops or Michelin Super Sports. After all, upgrading tires is very expensive. It is the single most important performance feature, i.e. contact to ground, a sports car should be delivered with.
 

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With 400 hp, Nissan had better not cheap out on tire choices, should be proper Dunlops or Michelin Super Sports. After all, upgrading tires is very expensive. It is the single most important performance feature, i.e. contact to ground, a sports car should be delivered with.
Totally agree. I nearly always have to swap the tires on sports cars I purchase and it's an irritation. Most manufacturers seem to only put reasonably sticky tires on the specific "track-focused" variants of their sports cars (which is kind of ludicrous).
 
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